Case File | The Cult Next Door

From Airship, I'm Jeremy Schwartz, and this is American Criminal.

How do you know if you're in a cult?

That's a pretty simple question to answer, right?

It feels like everyone should know the obvious signs, the charismatic leader, the outlandish beliefs, the isolation from the rest of society.

Surely all of that's easy to spot when you're in the thick of it.

You notice those warning signs and you pull the ripcord.

But if that's the case, then how come cults still exist today?

How do so many people fall prey to con artists playing prophet?

The answer is that cults are even more insidious than most of us realize.

Sure, we've heard about the famous groups, the one that made headlines, the Manson family, People's Temple, the Branch Davidians, but not every cult is quite so textbook as those were.

Just look at Nxivm.

No one involved with that group signed up for a religious experience, but plenty of them fell for Keith Raniere's nonsense all the same.

It took some of these educated people years to finally realize they were neck deep in a modern day cult.

Even when Keith was branding women with his initials and calling them his slaves, people couldn't see the truth.

So if you missed the big warning signs, what are the other things you should be looking for to tell if someone's in a cult?

That's where people like Mattie Lasiter and Ashleigh Teeter come in.

Their father led a doomsday cult in Arkansas that ruined plenty of lives.

Now, Mattie and Ashleigh are sharing their stories and educating others about the realities of growing up in a cult and what it's like to break free.

This is an episode from their show, The Cult Next Door, the key to recognizing cults.

Follow The Cult Next Door wherever you listen to podcasts.

The World Tomorrow, the Worldwide Church of God presents Herbert W.

Armstrong.

Now that time of trouble is just ahead.

That's going to follow the proclaiming of the true gospel that I'm doing tonight in your ears.

You want to know about prophecy being fulfilled, you're hearing it right now.

Our father wants everyone loving on each other with no fear of what it may appear as.

If some are too uncomfortable, then they're just not chosen or have been rejected to be a part of this end time work.

And God has sent me to the kings and to the tops of nations even.

I heard the Lord say his name is the reckoning.

And then I heard him say, death, walking.

Now only the line, the devil is left to face the reckoning and he is as good as dead.

The Lord is infusing me with power for this confrontation.

So before Ashleigh and I go any further into our own cult story and family cult story, we thought it'd be helpful to kind of dispel some of the common myths surrounding cults, explain some of the terms that you're going to hear and the concepts that we're going to be discussing as we dive deeper into our story and other people's stories beyond that.

Our main hope is that we can shed light on the different ways that cults can present themselves.

There's not just one way.

There's lots of different ways and where the cult dynamic can be found and what you should be looking for when you want to identify a harmful group or even a relationship.

So as we continue to unravel the story of our experience with multiple destructive cults, we hope that you'll consider if you see any of these characteristics or the methods you use or the tactics in your own life, whether that be in a group that you're in or a church or a yoga group or whatever it is or a family or a friend or a family member that you have that can also fit within this cult dynamic.

So I know we've got a kind of a list of myths here that we're going to go over just to kind of try to dispel some of these common ones.

So Ashleigh, I'll let you kind of take it with myth number one.

Sure.

Okay, so myth number one is that cults operate in communes separated from society.

So when you think of a cult, what comes to mind is likely along the lines of Jonestown, Heaven's Gate or fundamentalist cults that you've seen documentaries on Netflix of where the members are shut off basically from the rest of the world.

However, cults can be as small as even just two people.

And we'll get into this a little more later in the episode.

Yeah, that's something that we had talked about even when we named this podcast.

We threw away, threw around some different names, but you know, naming it the cult next door, I think, at least the point for me was that, you know, everybody knows about Jonestown and Waco in these, and rightly so, but there are so many groups, and probably in the people that are listening, you can identify some of this in your own life, these same tactics that are used.

Like it's not uncommon.

Maybe the culmination of all the tactics into one place is more uncommon, like where it gets really destructive and crazy, you've got all these different pieces.

And I think that's where you start to learn about the crazy ones.

But still, these all kinds of different groups and relationships can have little bits and pieces of those.

Right.

And like we're discussing here as part of our experience is being in a family cult.

And I don't think that that is maybe common knowledge.

I certainly never thought of that or had heard of that until later in life.

And so even romantic relationships where there's an abusive relationship dynamic between two people.

So I think that that's something to consider when you're looking at the criteria of what a cult is.

So myth number two is that cults have to be religious, which is not true.

Cults can come in a variety of forms from destructive romantic relationships just between two people.

Family cults, like what we experienced, or groups like Nxivm that are not religious in nature.

And that one, Nxivm in particular, fronted as a personal development organization, but had so many of the same characteristics that you and I experienced in a very religious-centric cult.

So it doesn't really matter.

It can span all those different genres, if you will.

Yeah, and we kind of had the convergence of a family cult with the religious, spiritual cult.

And so you're right, so many different pieces can come together, and no cult looks exactly like another.

All right, so myth number three.

Smart people don't join cults.

And I know you've talked about this a lot.

And I feel like this has to be maybe the most dangerous myth of all.

I kind of did a bit of a deep dive on the Internet, finding what are the stats when it comes to the people who are recruited for cults.

And recent studies show that contrary to popular belief, people with higher education are actually more likely to join a cult.

And like you've mentioned before, no one joins a cult on purpose.

But that is something that you've even said, a question that you've gotten from people, why did you join a cult?

Or Liz has gotten that question.

You had no choice.

You were born and raised in it.

I give a pass.

But your wife, Liz, has gotten that question.

Well, why would you do that?

And no one joins a cult on purpose.

There's no one personality characteristic that makes one more vulnerable to that type of influence than another person.

Yeah, and several of the guests that we're going to have on, my wife, for one, and Sandy, who you're going to hear from, and other people that are, you know, my wife is a college graduate, and our sister Jen, who's going to come on soon, college graduate, like, these aren't dumb people.

These are educated people.

Sandy went to the LA film school and then had a 10-year career in Hollywood.

These are not just down on their luck, dumb people, like, these are people that are educated, smart, but they're looking for some meaning in some way.

And I think that's the hook.

It's not that you're just dumb.

Yeah.

And I also read something interesting that said part of the reason why it may be that there are a greater percentage of people who join cults with higher education is because being in maybe a college setting or, you know, continued education setting, your mind is more open to other thoughts and ways of looking at things.

And so a person like that may be more comfortable with entertaining new ideas than someone who hasn't really experienced that kind of expansion.

Yeah, which makes them kind of perfect prey for a group like that that's looking to recruit, so to speak.

Yeah, exactly.

So the question is, how can you identify a cult?

So a tool that we have found particularly helpful, I know I have found it personally helpful, is the Byte Model, which some of you may be familiar with.

That's Dr.

Stephen Hassan's Byte Model.

He is an American author, educator, and a mental health counselor who specializes in destructive cults in particular.

He is the world's leading expert on mind control and cults.

He founded the Freedom of Mind Resource Center where he conducts workshops, training, education programs, intervention services, and exit counseling as a PhD level licensed mental health professional.

His website, by the way, is freedomofmind.com.

If you want to kind of learn more, we're going to kind of give like a snapshot of some of this.

But if you really want to get in depth, like he's got so much information there.

So many resources.

Yeah.

And then his YouTube as well, like so many of the same thing, those resources where he's going through this stuff in depth better than we could.

But we'll kind of give a snapshot of this.

He developed the BITE model, the B-I-T-E model to describe cult specific methods for recruiting and maintaining control over people, which has become the gold standard tool for identifying cults.

BITE is an acronym that stands for Behavior, Information, Thought and Emotion.

And I wanted to mention that many years went by since I exited the cult, and we haven't gotten to this part yet, but even though I was banished from the family cult and from dad's religious cult from his church, I continued in an offshoot with my then husband, Kurt, and so it wasn't until 2009, I believe, that I actually left all of that for good.

And so it was even a couple years after I exited, so it would have been like maybe 2011 or so.

I found Dr.

Hassen's book, and I had never heard of him before, but I had this idea that, you know, I think worldwide, Church of God was a cult, and I'm pretty sure what dad is doing is a cult.

And the term, you know, the idea of a family cult had not even occurred to me at that point.

It was only through reading his book and reading The Byte Model that I realized what it really was for us growing up.

And I remember I bought this book.

This is just a side story, but I bought this book and I had a flight somewhere, and I'm sitting there on the plane, and I pull out my book, and it's combating cult mind control.

And I remember looking around like, is anyone noticing what I'm reading?

But it was super helpful for me.

I remember, you know, when we first left, hearing the term cult, there's such a stigma around that.

So you're like, no.

But that's the whole point of what we're talking about is like the Byte Model, his information, the reason it's become the gold standard, it's so effective in identifying.

And then it's almost, you know, I think I'd said this in another one of our episodes at one point, like if the shoe fits, and that's kind of what you have to do, like put aside like, oh, that sounds, you know, harsh or this or that, like just look at the information.

Does it fit?

And in our case, it fits in so many ways.

So that's how you can identify it's a kind of a surefire way.

Just like put out of your mind, you know, the stigma of the word and just look at the information, does it meet the criteria?

So that's what we're hoping like that comes across in this is you'll kind of at least get a snapshot of what the usefulness of this information.

One thing I will mention is that worldwide Church of God embraced the term cult because it was said so much about worldwide.

And I even remember post-worldwide when this was brought up, it was said, well, yeah, I mean, the definition of cult is something, you know, that's not mainstream.

And no, we're not mainstream because mainstream is not God's way.

So I just thought it was a little interesting tidbit.

Now we agree with them.

Yeah.

It is a cult.

It is.

Okay.

So the BITE model is best used with the Influence Continuum model, which helps determine authoritarian control.

So on the unhealthy side of the continuum, we are talking about authoritarian mind control cults.

These cults want members to be obedient and dependent.

They use fear, guilt and shame to control members.

They're led by narcissistic, sociopathic or psychopathic, grandiose, power-hungry leaders who seek and claim absolute and divine sometimes power and authority.

They can be secretive, deceptive and manipulative.

The organization is often elitist, which we definitely experienced, and authoritarian in structure.

The ends typically in these groups justify the means and the drive to preserve power and to maintain control is paramount.

Leaders are opposed to any facts that may be in contradiction to their claims.

There are no legitimate reasons to leave the group.

Cult members are indoctrinated to believe that terrible consequences will befall them, their families, or even mankind if they leave.

That definitely resonates.

Every bit of it absolutely resonates.

All of it does.

But in particular, what stuck out when you read that was no legitimate reason to leave the group.

That was something like hardcore.

If you ask anybody who I think was in Worldwide or Crusade, it would be the same answer like, Oh, absolutely.

There's no, something is wrong with you if you leave.

And you're dangerous to other people now.

That's how it was in Worldwide.

We did not speak to people who left.

Families who left were completely shunned by the remaining members in the Worldwide Church of God.

Disfellowshipped.

Oh, disfellowshipped is death.

So in these kind of cults, cult doctrine is to be accepted, not necessarily understood.

That also resonates.

Yes.

Since mind control depends on creating a new identity within the individual, cult doctrine becomes the master program for all thoughts, feelings and actions.

Since it is the truth, perfect and absolute, any flaw in it is viewed as only a reflection of the believer's own imperfection.

Wow.

That one's hitting.

You talked about that in the last episode.

Wow.

He is taught that he must follow the prescribed formula, even if he doesn't understand it.

Wow.

Again, at the same time, he is told that he should try to work harder and have more faith so that he will come to understand the truth more clearly.

That's on in combating cult mind control on page 79.

If anybody wants to follow along, cults reduce reality to good versus evil, us versus them.

It's a very binary black and white thing, which we've talked about a little bit.

Members feel they are part of an elite group of mankind.

Also, super duper resonates.

I know it does with you too.

The weight of believing in their own elite status is heavy as members believe and are told that what they do or don't do can impact all of humanity.

That one, that whole little piece there is just like hitting so hard and right home.

Oh yeah.

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Cult members are motivated through fear and guilt.

Each group has its devil lurking around the corner, waiting for members to tempt and seduce, or to drive insane.

The more vivid and tangible a devil the group can conjure, the more intense is the cohesiveness it fosters.

And that is a quote from Stephen Hassen's book, Combating Cult Mind Control, page 82.

And in this way, cult members are really trauma bonded.

Yeah, and I definitely...

That resonates with me.

Like, I can look at relationships that I have with people that I was in the cult with, and that's a real thing, that trauma bond.

It's kind of a two-edged sword.

You have closeness with this person, but the reason why you do is like, well, I wish that hadn't been necessary for us to be close.

Right.

I know.

It's all just fear and, yeah.

Trying to survive together, honestly, is kind of what it feels like.

Yeah.

Life in a cult can be compared to a roller coaster ride.

Amen.

There are very high highs and very low lows.

This can be incredibly disruptive to life and damaging to the psyche.

And as we described the BITE model in detail, keep in mind that all cults will not use all of these methods.

That's not the point.

And also important to note that a cult can be as small as two people.

Yeah.

The key in determining if you're in a cult can be found within this model.

So the BITE, like we talked about, is behavior, information, thought and emotion.

And do you want to kind of go over kind of the structure of that model?

So, I would highly recommend going to freedomofmind.com.

There's a free downloadable PDF of the BITE model.

It's pretty extensive.

And so we won't go through every single one.

For instance, under behavior, the B and BITE, there are 25 different points that are listed.

And so, I'll list out a few, but if you want the full picture, we can link it maybe in the video.

Yeah, we can do that.

But go to freedomofmind.com to get more.

So, under behavior control, regulate individuals' physical reality, dictate where, how and with whom the member lives and associates or isolates, when, how and with whom the member has sex, control types of clothing and hairstyles, manipulation and deprivation of sleep.

That might be keeping people up to all hours of the night and worship.

Can be rewards and punishment used to modify behaviors, both positive and negative.

Discourage individualism, encourage group think, impose rigid rules and regulations, encourage and engage in corporal punishment.

And it gets worse, it's separation of families, which we experienced.

Which we're dealing with.

Yeah.

And then we'll kind of jump over to information control, and I'll kind of do the same thing where I'm not going to read every one of these, but I'll try to pick out some here.

So, one, deception.

So like deliberately withholding information or distorting information, or just flat out systematically lying to cult members, minimizing or discouraging access to information.

And that could be, you know, critical information, former members, which was a big thing in both, you know, every group that we have been involved in, that was a thing, that was a dangerous thing.

You were to not really associate with people who were former members.

Keep members busy so they don't have time to think and investigate, certainly.

In line with that one, compartmentalize information into outsider versus insider doctrine goes back to the us versus them, black versus white, binary thinking, kind of allow leadership to decide who needs to know what and when, encourage spying on other members.

And that can even be like something that we've experienced where you're, maybe it's not even that you're encouraged to tattle on others, but you're afraid you're going to get in trouble or some kind of issue is going to arise if you don't point out something you saw.

Because of the knowledge you have about someone else.

Exactly.

So it's not that you just want to be, you know, you want to go get somebody, but you're afraid it's going to come back on you if you don't.

Well, and you're expected to.

Yes, yeah, for sure.

Extensive use of cult generated information and propaganda, like newsletters and articles and website and that type of stuff.

And misquoting non-cult, you know, statements from non-cult articles and websites and things to kind of distort and take things out of context to support what you're thinking, kind of that confirmation bias by design.

And then unethical use of confession.

So if you're confiding in somebody and that is not that information is shared without your permission, that kind of thing used against you, information about sins, manipulation of your memory, implanting false memories, withholding forgiveness and things like that are heavily used in the information control portion there.

I did read some interesting things about confessions and having, especially in religious cults, having people come up and confess past sins.

And it is a means of control and manipulation.

And I thought that was an interesting part of the information part of the model.

You know, that reminds me, we had a Friday night, like, praise and prayer service for many years.

And I don't remember in particular what it was, but there was an expectation for most people to pray aloud during the post-music worship section, you know?

And I remember, there was a specific time, I was probably a teenager, late teens, maybe, early twenties, probably late teens.

And I did a public prayer, and I said something about a desire I had, like, I want to be, I want to do this, or I want to be like this.

I can't remember specifically, I'm probably not telling the story great, but I remember that being used against me later.

Like, well, you said in your prayer, such and such.

And ever since then, I was like, well, I don't want to pray, or if I do, I want it to be very milquetoast and generic so that it can't be used.

And it's like, even little stuff like that.

It's like, that is so bad to use that kind of thing against somebody when they're bearing themselves.

Like, here's what I, my desire, Lord.

And then it's used against you a month from then.

It's like, yeah, well, you said this and you're not living that way.

It's like, whoa, okay.

Wow.

Because I'll keep catching myself.

Yeah.

Okay, so thought control.

And there are several of these two, so I'll try to condense.

Require members to internalize the group's doctrine as truth.

That includes deciding between good and evil, instilling black and white thinking, adopting the group's map of reality as reality, and organizing people into us versus them, outsiders versus insiders.

The use of loaded language and cliches, which constrict knowledge and stop critical thoughts and reduce complexities into platitudinous buzzwords.

Encourage only good and proper thoughts.

Memories are manipulated.

False memories sometimes are created.

Teaching thought-stopping techniques, which shut down reality, testing by stopping negative thoughts and allowing only positive thoughts, which really is just the abolition of critical thinking.

We had a term that we used, take every thought captive.

Yes.

Which is literally this.

That's from the scripture, isn't it?

It may be.

Yeah, it probably is.

But that was something that was harped on a lot, like take every thought captive.

Yeah, because there was such an emphasis on, you could, you were not only sinning by, let's say, you know, outright lying, but if you like, you were very responsible for what you thought.

So it wasn't just that you had to be a good person and not lie, cheat and steal and commit adultery, but you were never supposed to even think any of these thoughts because we were taught that even thinking them meant that you were committing that sin just as if you had done the actual thing.

So, so there was a lot of thought-stopping techniques used for us.

Another one is rejection of rational analysis, critical thinking, and constructive criticism.

And forbid critical questions about leader, doctrine, or policy.

And labeling alternative belief systems as illegitimate, evil, or not useful.

It's home.

Yeah.

And then moving on to the last letter of the bi-acronym, emotional control.

Manipulate and narrow the range of feelings.

Some emotions and or needs are deemed as evil, wrong, selfish, put whatever label you want.

It's bad.

Teach emotion-stopping techniques to block feelings, such as homesickness for groups like that, anger, doubt for sure.

Make the person feel that problems are always their own fault, never the leaders' or the group's fault, for sure.

If it didn't go well, you did something, it was your pride, you messed it up.

Promote feelings of guilt or unworthiness, such as like identity guilt.

You're not living up to your potential.

You're past a suspect, like guilt over things that you did before you were in the group type thing.

I know a lot of us have dealt with that.

Or things that you did before you were fully committed, you know, that type of thing.

Thoughts and feelings and your actions are irrelevant or selfish.

Instill fear, such as fear of thinking independently, fear of the outside world, that you have enemies that actually aren't there, that you may lose your salvation.

Big one.

Leaving or being shunned by the group or just other people's disapproval.

And extremes of emotional highs and lows.

Love bombing and praise one moment and then declaring that you are a horrible sinner, the next is a common one.

Ritualistic and sometimes public confession of sins, also not uncommon.

And then phobia indoctrination, inculcating irrational fears about leaving the group or questioning the leader's authority.

That there's no fulfillment that's possible outside of the group.

Like this is where you got to be if you want to be in the God's real shit.

Terrible consequences if you leave, like eternal damnation, demon possession, or that you're going to have to see a doctor regularly.

There's exactly right there.

Shouting people who leave, or that you're going to be disconnected from other people if you leave.

And that, like we've talked about earlier, that there's never a legitimate reason to leave, that people who leave are weak, undisciplined, unspiritual.

Worldly was a big one for us.

Or that they wanted something else, that they didn't want God or His way.

They had their sights on something worldly, or they, you know, they wanted somebody, or something like that.

Which is just so subjective.

Yeah.

I'm sure you identify with that.

The things that would be said about, oh, this person, they're thinking so worldly, and it would just be really nothing at all.

It, I found that to be so confusing.

Yeah.

Very arbitrary.

It is.

It was just whatever, however it could serve.

Yeah.

A purpose is how it was used.

It wasn't really used with any consistency.

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Okay.

So as we've mentioned before, you really cannot even talk about cult leaders without talking about narcissism.

They are inextricably linked.

Narcissistic personality disorder is within the cluster B personality disorders in the DSM-5.

Most cult leaders display narcissistic behaviors, so it's important to understand what narcissism is and how it manifests.

The label of narcissism, I feel like is really overused in today's society, and that really bothers me, because I hear that a lot, you know, oh, you know, he's a narcissist.

Well, I mean, I think there can be narcissistic traits and characteristics that we can probably all have at one point or another.

But what we're talking about is pathological in nature, and it includes very specific criteria.

I'll run down some of that here in this list.

This isn't everything, but it kind of gives a good picture.

So narcissists have an unreasonably high sense of self-importance and require constant excessive admiration in some form or another.

They feel that they deserve privileges and special treatment.

They expect to be recognized as superior, even without achievements.

Make achievements and talents seem bigger than they are.

Be preoccupied with fantasies about success, power, brilliance, beauty, or the perfect mate.

Believe they are superior to others and can only spend time with or be understood by equally special people.

Be critical of and look down on people they feel are not important.

Expect special favors and expect other people.

To do what they want without question.

Take advantage of others to get what they want.

Have an inability or unwillingness to recognize the needs and feelings of others.

Be envious of others and believe others envy them.

Behave in an arrogant way.

Brag a lot and come across as conceited.

And insist on having the best of everything.

Yep.

At the same time, people with narcissistic personality disorder have trouble handling anything they view as criticism.

They can become impatient or angry when they don't receive special recognition or treatment.

They have major problems interacting with others and easily feel slighted.

They can react with rage or contempt and try to belittle other people to make themselves appear superior.

They have difficulty managing their emotions and behavior.

They experience major problems dealing with stress and adapting to change.

They withdraw from or avoid situations in which they might fail.

They feel depressed and moody because they fall short of perfection, and they have secret feelings of insecurity, shame, humiliation and fear of being exposed as a failure.

And I would say that they probably are not aware of that last bit there.

Yeah, I don't think they are either.

At least not in the case that we're talking about.

I don't think that that's probably true.

Yeah, in the more extreme cases.

Yeah.

So narcissism is on a spectrum, but many cult leaders in particular are malignant narcissists.

So malignant narcissist was first coined by the psychotherapist Eric Fromm in 1964.

Fromm described it this way.

They feel powerful due to those qualities that they believe were given to them at birth.

I'm better than you.

Therefore, I don't need to prove anything.

I don't need to interact with anyone or make any effort either.

I move further and further away from reality.

The more I maintain this image of greatness.

Yeah, an American psychoanalyst of Austrian origin Otto Kernberg also studied malignant narcissism.

And according to him, this profile is defined by paranoid thinking, where they think that those around them are conspiring against them.

Their dichotomous thinking makes them divide their world into those who support them and those who don't.

This is why they distrust people who are different or who disagree with them and don't fit into their rigid vision of reality.

Another characteristic is sadism.

These people don't hesitate to make use of cruelty, contempt, rough criticism, manipulation, and humiliation.

And the most striking aspect about them is they often enjoy acting this way towards other.

They are enjoying the power.

So Dr.

Hassan described malignant narcissists this way.

Grandiose self-centered behavior.

So a grandiose self-image.

This person sees themselves as chosen and the best at everything and anything.

They have fantasies of power, success, and attractiveness.

So this person may believe that they are special and unique.

They need praise and admiration.

Cult leaders require constant praise in some form or another.

They have a sense of entitlement, so they think they are above the law and can do anything.

And a lack of empathy.

So this can lead them to exploit, bully, shame, and demean others without any guilt or remorse at all.

They don't think that they've done anything wrong to use that tactic at all.

Yeah.

OK, so this is just a general snapshot.

Obviously, this is not super in-depth.

We are not the experts on this.

We're just trying to share the information from the experts like Dr.

Hassan.

But just to illustrate that this is not just purely a subjective thing, that this has definitions that we can use, you can use, this is a resource that you can use in your own lives to look at your relationships in the church, in the group that you're in, to identify these things.

And I think that's the point of going through this, of the episodes that you've already heard, the episodes that you're going to continue to hear during this first season, like this is useful information that helped us identify and that can help you identify not just things in our story that we're telling, but in your own lives as you listen.

100%.

So next episode, we're gonna kind of pick up where we left off with episode three that you've hopefully listened to.

We're gonna kind of get her perspective.

She was older, obviously, than I was at the time.

So she remembers and she also remembers everything.

So that's very handy in a case like this.

So she can kind of give her perspective on what was happening at the time when you were removed from the family and from the church and from our lives.

And then what life was like from her perspective in the family and in the family cult after everything happened with you.

So I think that's going to be really good.

She can spill the tea and really give some insight that neither of us can really first hand give.

Yeah, and she was 16 when all of this happened with me.

So she remembers being in the Worldwide Church of God as well.

And then the transition into a crusade church.

Yeah, so that'll be episode five coming up next week, hopefully.

So just keep an eye out for that.

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American Criminal is hosted, edited and executive produced by me, Jeremy Schwartz.

Audio editing by Mohammed Shazieh.

Sound design by Matthew Filler.

Music by Thrum.

This episode is written and researched by Joel Callan, managing producer Emily Burke.

Executive producers are Joel Callan, William Simpson and Lindsey Graham.