The Murder of Carol Stuart | The Body in the Water | 3

This episode contains descriptions and details that some listeners might find disturbing. Listener discretion is advised. It's around 9 p.m.

on October 23rd, 1989. At Boston City Hospital, an operating room is buzzing with activity. 29-year-old Charles Stuart lies on a bed, his mouth covered by an oxygen mask, his hands smeared with blood.

Nurses carefully cut away his jeans and attach monitors, while doctors ask Chuck where he's feeling pain.

A police officer stands to one side, waiting for the right moment when he can ask more questions about the man who gave Chuck the gunshot wound in his abdomen.

Hovering on the periphery is a small film crew, their camera capturing every moment for the television show Rescue 911. They're filming Chuck's pained groans, the doctors calling out vitals, the nurse holding Chuck's hand.

Through it all, the patient is incredibly calm and in an even voice, he asks about his wife, Carol. They were both shot less than half an hour ago after they left a birthing class.

The doctors tell Chuck that Carol's at another hospital so they can't give him an update right now. Chuck's not phased. He doesn't cry, he doesn't seem scared or in shock.

It's almost like this is a routine procedure for him. Like, he was expecting to be undergoing life-saving surgery tonight. Minutes later, technicians take x-rays so doctors can get a better look at what they're dealing with.

Then the surgeons scrub in. As Chuck lies on the bed, he only seems half awake, but his mouth is going a mile a minute. He keeps repeating the same phrases over and over again.

Shot me, shot my wife, blackmail, shot my wife, I ducked, shot me. It almost sounds like a mantra, or like an actor rehearsing lines ahead of his big performance. From Airship, I'm Jeremy Schwartz, and this is American Criminal.

On October 23rd, 1989, 29-year-old Charles Stuart shot his pregnant wife in the head, then turned the gun on himself. His plan was to blame the attack on an imaginary black man, correctly guessing that people would believe his vague story.

Not just the police, but his family, his friends, the city of Boston. But Chuck wasn't prepared for just how much attention he would receive in the wake of the crime.

The same night he planned his crime, a film crew was riding along with a team of paramedics to capture footage for the popular TV show Rescue 911. So when first responders arrived on the scene, cameras were there to document every moment.

Those same cameras followed Chuck to the hospital, into the operating room, where his strange behavior caught the attention of some eagle-eyed nurses.

They spotted right away that this man didn't seem like someone whose wife and unborn son were fighting for their lives. This was a man who had something to hide.

But while the people who saved his life whispered that they didn't believe his story, Boston's leaders took Chuck Stuart at his word and did exactly what he wanted them to do. They started hunting for a black man to blame.

This is episode 3 in our 3 part series on the Murder of Carol Stuart, The Body in the Water.

4:16

Framing Willie Bennett

It's the afternoon of October 24th, 1989. In Boston's Mission Hill projects, a group of teenage boys has gathered in Joey Bennett's bedroom to play a video game.

On the street outside, cop cars are making regular patrols, sometimes running their sirens, but mostly just cruising slowly through the neighborhood.

It's been less than 24 hours since Charles and Carol Stuart were shot in their car not far from here, and the whole city is on edge. 17-year-old Joey has his eyes on the screen while his friends laugh and joke around him.

They may or may not be passing a joint around too. One of those friends, Derek Jackson, picks up a framed newspaper article. It's about Joey's uncle, Willie Bennett, a man with a violent criminal past.

The article is about a standoff he had with police a few years back. Derek knows all about Willie. He's something of a legend to these kids.

They think he's a fearless badass. Chuckling slightly, Derek asked Joey if his uncle had anything to do with the shooting last night.

Joey, concentrating on the Nintendo, a little bit high and barely paying attention to the question, shrugs and says one word. Yeah. And so it begins.

After Joey's offhand comment in his bedroom, his friends all head home. None of them want to be out after dark with how many cops are in the neighborhood. On the way, Derek runs into another kid he knows, 18-year-old Eric Whitney.

He tells Eric all about what Joey said, how his uncle Willie shot that pregnant woman. A little while after that, Eric goes home and tells his mother, only he embellishes the story, like a lot.

According to Eric's version, Willie Bennett told his nephew that he was the gunman, showed him the gun he used for the crime, then demonstrated exactly how he did it. Eric's mother listens to the story and wraps silence.

Then she picks up the phone to call her boyfriend, who just happens to be a Boston PD officer. The story's passed around and eventually makes its way up the chain to the detectives leading the investigation.

About a week later, Derek and Eric are both hauled down to the police station to answer questions about Willie Bennett. Derek's shocked by how much the story has changed since he told Eric. All he'd said was that Willie told his nephew he did it.

By this stage, the cops believe that Willie himself held an audience with Joey and his friends, brandishing the murder weapon and loudly bragging about shooting the Stuarts.

So Derek tries to set the record straight to tell the cops exactly how it all went down, but they are not interested in hearing what he has to say unless it confirms the version of the story they've heard.

Derek sticks to his guns though, and when he refuses to back down, they threaten him with 20 years in prison. He's a liar, they say, and liars like him belong behind bars.

Now, as a reminder, Boston PD have been stopping and searching young black men and boys like Derek for months.

Initially, it was a response to rising rates of violence in this city, but it's caused a lot of friction between the cops and Boston's black community. Now, in the wake of the Stuart shootings, they've stepped things up a notch.

And even though a superior court judge told them to stop, the Boston PD have kept right on doing it. So, in Derek's teenage mind, the cops can do whatever they want.

So when they threaten him with jail time for trying to correct them over a rumor he started, he's scared. Eventually, the cops wear Derek down. Eric's version of the story is true, he says.

And now that he's singing their tune, the detectives finally start taping the interview. Both teenagers give the statements the police have told them to give, the cops give them 20 bucks to buy some burgers and they're told to scram.

Once they get home though, Derek and Eric talk on the phone. In the safety of their apartments, away from the intimidation of a cop in a uniform, the guilt sets in. Neither of them feel good about lying.

So the next morning, they return to the station and tell the officers that they want to correct their statements. The ones they gave yesterday weren't truthful. This is not what the cops want to hear.

They bring the teens into separate interrogation rooms where Derek is taunted about being a popular target for men in prison and Eric is made to watch as an officer fills out a form for his arrest.

It's terrifying for them, the thought of spending decades in prison. So again, they do exactly what the investigators are hoping for. They once again confirm that the story about Willie Bennett is true.

He's the killer. After that, an officer types up an affidavit about all he's learned about Willie Bennett's confession to a room full of teenage boys.

The document is submitted as part of a request for a search warrant for Willie's apartment, which is duly granted.

After that, parts of the affidavit are leaked to the press, tipping the local media off that Willie Bennett is undoubtedly the man responsible for the shootings of October 23rd. Around 3 a.m.

on November 11th, police and riot gear show up to the house of Willie's girlfriend in Burlington, 19 miles north of Mission Hill. They haul 39-year-old Willie out of bed and place him under arrest.

Later that day, Boston's media makes a meal out of the late night raid. It's been nearly 3 weeks since Carol Stuart was murdered and everyone wants answers. Now it seems like they finally have them.

And while newspapers and morning news spend the next few days celebrating the triumph of the justice system, remember, Boston PD assembles a case against Willie with a grand jury. But there's a problem. Their witnesses keep recanting.

Or else telling journalists that the cops have twisted their words. They're all basically saying the same thing. They were coerced by the police.

And with pretty much all their witnesses backing out, prosecutors have got nothing to use against their suspect. Luckily for them, they do have one eyewitness to the crime who they can trust to tell the truth, Chuck Stuart.

In mid-November, investigators take a stack of photos to Boston City Hospital and lay them out in front of Chuck. After careful examination, he points to two of the pictures as possibilities. One of those pictures is of Willie Bennett.

A few days later, the investigators return with more photos, including another one of Willie. Chuck selects Willie again. Only this time, he's shaking and holding back tears.

He says it's the best picture he's seen so far. As far as identifications go, it's a compelling performance, but it's hardly a slam dunk. He doesn't say, it was this guy or this is the man who shot me, officer.

He says that a picture of Willie is the best one he's seen so far. Still, police leak the story to the press. The Boston Herald breathlessly reports that the evidence is stacking up against Willie Bennett, but it's not.

This shaky idea is the very best investigators have so far, and it's not good. But the narrative, oh, the narrative fits so well. Willie has a criminal record, and he vaguely matches the description Chuck gave to police.

It doesn't help that he also committed armed robbery just a few weeks before the shootings. If you take the case at face value, Willie just seems guilty.

The thing is, Willie's not responsible for the death of Carol Stuart, nor is he to blame for the death of her son. Little Christopher's life support was turned off on November 9th. His father was beside him when he died.

Chuck seemed distraught, crying tears for the son he'd murdered. And Willie Bennett? He was looking set to take the fall for Chuck's evil plot.

On December 5th, Chuck is released from the hospital.

13:09

Whispers of Doubt

He's had a surprisingly speedy recovery, given how serious his injuries seemed when he was brought in. But that just fits the narrative the media have created about Chuck. The resilient husband, a man soldiering on in the wake of unspeakable tragedy.

But not everyone in Boston is so enamored with Chuck Stuart. In fact, a lot of the staff at Boston City Hospital are happy to see the back of him. Over the six weeks he spent in their care, plenty of them came to suspect that he was the real killer.

He was too cheerful with the nurses, too optimistic about his future, too cold to his wife's parents.

They heard him talking about the new car he was gonna buy, about his plans for Christmas, and the one thing that seemed to bum him out was having to use a colostomy bag.

It wasn't the behavior of a man who'd lost his wife and son in a robbery gone wrong. It was the behavior of a man who'd orchestrated the whole thing. And the staff at Boston City Hospital aren't the only ones who think Chuck's story stinks.

In fact, in his hometown of Revere, plenty of people know that Chuck killed his wife. The morning after the shooting, Chuck's younger brother Matthew told his ex-girlfriend. He just couldn't keep it to himself, and neither could she.

She told her parents who told her to meet with their lawyer. Within days, Matt had also spoken with the lawyer. So that's at least five people who knew.

Matt also went to another one of his brothers, Michael. Now he doesn't have any trouble believing the story since Chuck approached him about killing Carol months ago. At the time, Michael hoped it was all a joke.

Now he knows better. But neither of the guys knows what to do. Chuck's still in the hospital and everyone in Boston seems to think he's some kind of hero.

And besides, can they really betray their brother like that? And then there's David McLean. The friend Chuck also approached about helping him find someone to kill Carol.

David's been talking to people about that strange conversation and how cold Chuck was when David shot him down.

The story makes its way around Revere and eventually is whispered to one of the town's cops who calls the tip and to his colleagues on the Boston PD.

A detective on the case doesn't put much stock in the rumor, but he tracks down David McLean and gives him a call. But David's so surprised and scared by the attention from the police that he denies the whole thing.

And that's the last anyone ever looks into it. Meanwhile, Boston's newsrooms have been receiving anonymous tips that Chuck's not telling the truth.

There are rumors of him trying to find someone to kill Carol, of his crush on a young office assistant who worked at his store over the summer, and stories about his controlling nature.

There are a few journalists at the city's major newspapers, The Globe and The Herald, who push their editors to run with the story. But they are shot down. There is just no evidence to back up the rumor.

And while that is responsible journalism, it just serves to prolong the charade a little bit longer. Not that Chuck's trying all that hard to keep up appearances on his end.

By the time he left the hospital, he'd already received an $82,000 check from Carol's life insurance policy. That would be just over 200 grand today. And he wastes no time putting it to use.

That new car the hospital nurses heard him talking about, he goes and picks one out. Then he goes to a jewelry store and buys a pair of diamond earrings for $1,000. That's an unusual purchase for a man whose wife was just murdered.

I mean, sure Christmas is coming up, but is he really spending that much money on a gift for his mom or one of his sisters? No, it seems more likely that he's got someone else in mind.

That summer office assistant at Chuck's work, Debbie Allen, is 21, studying at Brown and she definitely caught Chuck's attention over the summer. In her mind, they were just work friends.

He's got a wife and she's dating the football captain at her school. But then in November, he called and begged her to come visit him in the hospital. He didn't want to be alone.

So she went and sat by his bed for a while, promised to call him when she got back to school. Nothing has happened between the two of them, but people talk about Debbie all the same.

And now it seems like Chuck might have bought her expensive earrings. Not that anyone gets wind of that little detail just yet. But with how much people are talking, it's bound to come out soon enough.

For now, though, Chuck spends Christmas with his family. And it's just like when he was very young and everyone in the family doted on him. He revels in it.

And he feels untouchable. He even falls back into his usual habit of treating his youngest brothers like crap. Chuck's always found Matt a disappointment and he's never made a secret of that.

Not even now. With everything Matt's done for Chuck, with all he knows, Chuck still doesn't think enough of his brother to treat him well. It's almost like the last few months never happened.

But they did happen. It's all Matthew Stuart can think about. And he's not going to keep his mouth shut for much longer.

It's just after lunch on December 28th, 1989, two months since the murder of Carol Stuart. 30-year-old Chuck Stuart stands in a small, dark vestibule looking through a dim window into a larger, brightly lit room.

He's flanked by a pair of detectives who tell him he doesn't have to make a positive ID today, just pick out the guy who looks the closest to the man who killed his wife and child. Chuck stares at the black men on either side of the two-way mirror.

Seven of them are Boston PD employees in plain clothes. The eighth is Willie Bennett, still in custody over an armed robbery charge. Chuck's eyes keep returning to Willie.

He definitely looks familiar, but that's only because he's seen Willie in two different photo lineups. One by one, the men step forward so Chuck can get a better look. After all, he still says he can't be sure.

So all the men step closer to the glass once again. Finally, Chuck says that number three, that's Willie, might be the guy, but he can't be sure. Then he turns away from the glass signaling that he's done looking at the lineup.

It's strange that he's so hesitant to pin the blame for this crime on another man when he had no qualms about murdering his wife and son. But for whatever reason, he won't give a more firm ID than that.

Still, it's the best the cops are going to get from Chuck Stuart today. And they're going to run with it. Chuck's shaky ID of Willie Bennett as the gunman is once again leaked to the press.

But the cops tell journalists that it was as certain an identification as they've ever seen. Chuck didn't hesitate. They promise Willie's their guy.

No doubt about it. It's a sweaty move from a team anxious to give the public some good news about the case that's been looking increasingly fragile as the weeks drag on. There's not one shred of physical evidence against Willie.

So a positive identification from the victim is paramount to securing a conviction. And even that's a long way off. And you know what?

It's about to get even further away. Because when Matt Stewart hears about the lineup, about his brother throwing some other man under the bus, he knows he can't keep Chuck secret anymore. Neither can Michael.

The brother Matt's already confided in. A few days after the lineup, on January 1st, Michael tells their older brother Mark the whole story. He tells one of their sisters, and together, they tell Matt that he's waited long enough.

It's time to go to the police with what he knows, even if it means Chuck goes to jail. But first, they have to bring the rest of the family in. They call everyone together on the third, all of the Stuart siblings and their parents.

They sit in the living room, silent, as 23-year-old Matt explains what Chuck did, or at least what Matt knows about the plot. How he and Chuck practiced the handoff of some jewels and cash for an insurance scam.

How Chuck looked and sounded when he threw Carol's purse into Matt's car about finding the gun inside that purse. His story is that he just helped get rid of the evidence, that he wasn't there for the crime, but we'll put a pin in that for now.

When Matt finishes talking, Charles Sr. and Dorothy are both crying. They ask their kids, why?

Why would Chuck do something like this? He was their golden boy. He and Carol were so happy.

They were about to have a baby. It just doesn't make sense. But there's no answer that anyone can give.

They don't know why their brother decided to kill his wife and child. But they all know, they all agree, they can't let him get away with it.

That same night, Matt drives to Boston with his attorney to meet with a prosecutor from the Suffolk County District Attorney's Office. Also there are the head of Boston PD's Homicide Unit and the lead detective from the Stewart case.

To them, Matt's story sounds unbelievable, especially when investigators are already so convinced that Willie Bennett is their guy. But then Matt pulls something out of his pocket that shifts everything, Carol's engagement ring.

It's enough to convince everyone in the room. As Matt records a statement, his eldest brother stops by the family home in Revere to show off his new car. But Chuck doesn't get the reception he's expecting.

His other siblings tell him where Matt is, what he's doing. At that point, Chuck goes silent, paces around the room a few times and then runs from the house without saying goodbye. He drives his new car the 15 miles to his perfect home in Revere.

He'd been looking forward to setting up his new life here alone, maybe making room for a new woman someday, but now that's all ruined. He leaves his car in the driveway and rushes inside.

Less than 10 minutes later, he's running out the door again, an overnight bag over his shoulder. He backs into the street and heads for the highway. A little while later, he's in a lawyer's office.

John Daly is a family friend of the Stuarts, and Chuck hired him to be their spokesperson back when he was still recovering in the hospital. Now, Chuck tells him everything and asks for help. He can't go to jail, he says he won't.

He needs John to be his defense attorney. But John Daly tells Chuck there's nothing he can do. He represents the family, which means he represents Matt.

That's a clear conflict of interest that John can't ignore. Privately, he's relieved to have such a convenient excuse. He's repulsed by what Chuck did.

Still, John gives him a list of reputable criminal defense attorneys who will gladly take the case. Then he politely walks Chuck to the door and shows him out. He's on his own.

From John's office, Chuck drives through Boston, wondering what his next move should be. He can't believe he's going to be brought down by his waste of a brother. That kid he always looked down on and belittled.

It's a travesty. By 9:30 p.m., Boston PD have issued an arrest warrant for Chuck, but this is one development they don't leak to the press right away.

So when Chuck checks into a Sheridan by the interstate, he still doesn't know exactly where he stands. He just knows that it's not looking good. He spends the night alone in his room watching the TV for any mention of him.

But there's nothing. The whole time his mind races. Should he get ahead of the story?

What if he denies the whole thing? No one's going to believe a guy like Matthew over him. He could run, but would he get very far?

Eventually, he makes up his mind. He calls the front desk to ask for a 4:30 a.m. wake up call.

Then he turns out the light and goes to sleep. Tomorrow is a big day.

26:42

A Cityʼs Reckoning

It's just after 7 a.m. on January 4th, 1990. Arthur Suchney stands at the railing of the Tobin Bridge.

The soaring structure spans two miles over the Mystic River, connecting Boston to Chelsea. At Art's back, rush hour traffic flows in both directions. Shift workers heading home, office drones heading to the city to start their day.

Ordinarily, Art would be in a warm office of his own near the toll booths, watching a wall of screens, monitoring the bridge for breakdowns. I mean, one stopped car can cause chaos on a busy morning.

But right now, Art's peering into the frozen waters of the Mystic, some 200 feet below. Behind him, a state patrolman is leaning into an abandoned Nissan Maxima near a cluster of construction equipment.

Art noticed the empty vehicle on his screen a couple of minutes ago and hustled into the winter air to check it out. The patrolman arrived around the same time as he did. They've both seen this kind of thing too many times before.

Art sighs, staring down into the river. He's looking for signs of life, but he knows from experience he won't find any.

Later that morning, District Attorney Newman Flanagan holds a press conference alongside Mayor Raymond Flynn and the police commissioner.

In a conference room at Logan Airport, Flanagan tells a packed house of reporters that members of the Stuart family gave statements last night that quote, clearly exculpated Willie Bennett.

Then the kicker, those same statements inculpated Charles Stuart in the murder of his wife and infant son. At that, the room erupts with frenzied questions from the city's journalists, all of them wanting to know more details.

Chief among their questions, where is Chuck now? The answer to that comes within the hour, when rescue divers pull Charles Stuart from the Mystic River.

By this stage, news crews are set up on the river bank, a chopper hovering above all of them filming as Chuck's body is hauled onto a boat and brought to shore. It's a solemn moment.

Not only has a man died, but the city of Boston is being confronted with the fact that they were tricked, that this person was not who he claimed to be, that he told them what they were ready to hear and they believed it.

And now, while the Stuart family reckon with what their son and brother has done, and the Demates deal with the truth about Carol's death, a city has to shift its made-up mind. But that will be a more complicated process than anyone imagines.

At the edge of the river, DA. Flanagan tells reporters that Chuck Stuart was always a viable suspect in their investigation. It was the media who focused so heavily on Willie Bennett, he says.

The police have handled themselves with utmost professionalism, and they never once said that Chuck had been ruled out. It's not us, it's you. But even if that were true, it's definitely not that simple.

In the aftermath of Chuck's death, a grand jury is convened to fully investigate the murder of his wife and son. But like the earlier grand jury, who face problems with coerced witnesses and withdrawn testimony, this one has issues.

Only this time, people just straight up don't want to talk. Matthew Stuart pleads the fifth to most questions.

Whether he knew it at the time or not, he took an active role in the murder, and he doesn't want to say anything that might get him into trouble. Jack McMahon, the friend who helped Matt get rid of the gun in Carol's purse, he also pleads the fifth.

John Dolly, the Stuart family's attorney, is asked about what Chuck told him the night before he died, but John claims client confidentiality prevents him from answering. And since Chuck's dead, the only person who can legally wave that is his heir.

Thing is, Chuck's mother is his heir. Dorothy Stuart has the power to let the world know exactly what her son did, for it to be on the record, the unvarnished truth of it all. But that's not what she does.

Out of a protective instinct for one son or for two of them, Dorothy refuses to waive privilege. That decision effectively seals away the truth in a box no one can open. But the case continues to reverberate all the same.

Willie Bennett's name is cleared, but he still has crimes to answer for. In October of 1990, he's convicted on an unrelated armed robbery charge. He'll spend the next 12 years of his life in jail.

Jack McMahon pleads guilty to a range of charges for his role in covering up the crime and a sentence to one to three years in prison. As for Matt, he also pleads guilty to several charges, including conspiracy and possession of a firearm.

But people still ask if Matt was more involved in the crime than he's been letting on. Way back on the night of October 23rd, people were saying that Chuck Stuart couldn't possibly have shot himself. The angle was wrong.

The wound was too serious. So the surgeons who operated on him were adamant. There had to be someone else there, but if Chuck didn't pull the trigger, then who did?

Three witnesses from Mission Hill reported early on that they saw a man in the back of Stuart and Carol's car, or that they saw a figure get out of the car and run away moments after the gunshots.

One of those witnesses described a man who closely matched Matt's description. But no other firm evidence linking Matthew Stuart to the murder ever surfaces. Even a grand jury can't find anything concrete.

Over 100 people testify and prosecutors still can't place him in his brother's car on the night of the crime. Matthew will eventually die of a drug and alcohol overdose in 2011, never wavering in a story about Carol's murder.

And so, the case is closed. Investigators in the wider community are left to accept that, but legally speaking, Chuck Stuart was the one who pulled the trigger that night.

As to the question of why he did it, that's a mystery that no one will ever know the answer to.

Some believe it was greed, that Chuck wanted insurance money to open a restaurant, others think he was angry with his wife for insisting on having their baby when Chuck wanted her to get an abortion.

And there were the rumors that Chuck was having an affair with a college student who worked at a store. All are believable motivations, none can be proven.

Absent a complete understanding of what made Chuck do it, those left behind have to move forward as best they can. Carol's parents, Guizdo and Evelyn Demady, decide to turn their tragedy into a force for good.

Once the dust settles, they realize just how much their daughter's murder hurt the black community of Mission Hill. So they start a scholarship in her name.

The Carol Demady Stuart Foundation is established to grant college funds for students from Mission Hill.

At a press conference announcing the project, the Demady specifically cited desire to promote better race relations throughout the city in Greater Boston. Within a month, the foundation has received some $270,000 in donations.

Today, that amount would be worth close to 700 grand. The checks come from all over the country. People write with stories of their own murdered children.

Politicians thank the Demadys for their noble deed. Others send money with prayers for healing. Healing.

It's a nice thought, but it's not always simple. Almost 40 years later, Chuck Stuart's crime still echoes through Boston.

In 2023, the city issued a formal apology to Willie Bennett, and to another black man falsely accused of Carol's murder during the course of the investigation.

Mayor Michelle Wu told the men, What was done to you was unjust, unfair, racist, and just wrong. Even people who weren't around in 1989 still live with an inherited fear.

Fathers, grandfathers, uncles, mothers, aunts, they all repeat the story of the time when Boston's cops were sent into Mission Hill to stop and search young black men in the middle of the streets.

All because a man wanted to kill his wife, and he knew that he'd be believed when he lied. From Airship, this is episode 3 in our series on the murder of Carol Stuart.

On the next series, the story of a woman who lies as easily as she breathes, and won't let anyone stand in her way on her path to wealth. Not even if it means she has to kill. We use many different sources while preparing this episode.

A couple we can recommend are Deadly Greed by Joe Sharkey, the television show Rescue 911, and Reporting by the Boston Globe. This episode may contain reenactments or dramatized details.

And while in some cases, we can't know exactly what happened, all our dramatizations are based on historical research. American Criminal is a co-production of Airship and Evergreen Podcasts. It's hosted, edited and produced by me, Jeremy Schwartz.

Audio editing and sound design by Sean Ruhl-Hoffman. Music by Thrum. This episode is written and researched by Joel Callan, managing producer Emily Burke.

Executive producers are Joel Callan, William Simpson and Lindsey Graham.