Nancy Motes: The Dance Mom Kidnapper

Unknown Speaker (0:00): Most violent crimes that capture the public's imagination seem larger than life, but sometimes the most terrifying criminals are right next door.

Unknown Speaker (0:09): And he's just yelling, which translates to they killed my son.

Unknown Speaker (0:14): On the Fear Thy Neighbor podcast from iD, we'll explore these true stories and hear what happens when neighborly disputes reach the point of no return.

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Lindsey Graham (0:30): Before we begin, a small note. One of the people involved in this story shares a name with a certain Amazon branded voice activated device, so we wanted to let you know in case you need to switch to headphones while listening to this episode. Also, your regular host Jeremy Schwartz is taking a short break, so this bonus episode is being narrated by me, Lindsey Graham. No. Not that Lindsey Graham.

Lindsey Graham (0:51): Jeremy will be back soon. From Airship, I'm Lindsey Graham, and this is American Criminal. There are a lot of forces in this world. Forces for good and for bad, seen and unseen. But few feel as impactful, as lasting, as powerful as a mother's love.

Lindsey Graham (1:37): You may have heard that a mother in distress could lift a car to save her children as if motherhood is some kind of superpower. But it is a common superpower. Everyone in the world has one experience in common. At one point or another, we have all had a mother. Not everyone has the same mother, though.

Lindsey Graham (1:57): Our relationships with our parents vary from person to person, even among siblings. And so much of that relationship, of course, depends on the decisions and nature of that parent. Whether a mother is present or not, how she treats her children, how she punishes them, what her reasons were for starting a family in the first place, all of these things influence the people those children grow up to be. A mother can be something a person carries with them like a talisman or even a grudge. Let's look at the story of Sante Himes, a mother of two sons who each had very different relationships with her, depending on what she needed from them.

Lindsey Graham (2:34): Her eldest, Kent, was a young sidekick and butler. She made him take part in her shoplifting and insurance schemes and had him act as bartender for her dates. Her youngest son, Kenny, had a more complicated position. He was conceived as Sante's best way to keep her wealthy older partner Ken Sr. From leaving.

Lindsey Graham (2:53): He wouldn't marry her, and he wouldn't exclude his older children from his will. So Sante had a baby in order to create what she called her dynasty, a way to assure she, through her son, would inherit her partner's fortune. So it was important for Sante to stay on good terms with little Kenny. She pampered him, kept him sheltered from outside influences, and trained him to rely on her guidance and support to make it through the world. And when Ken Sr.

Lindsey Graham (3:19): Money was all gone by the time he died, Sante pivoted. She manipulated her son into killing for her, underlining that her concern was never the happiness of her children, but her own comfort. To Sante Chimes, motherhood was just a means to an end. But her story is, of course, an extreme exception. So many mothers, the majority, are devoted to their children.

Lindsey Graham (3:44): Some of them may be a little too much. For these moms, the success of their progeny is paramount to their own happiness. Sleights against their kids are slings and arrows aimed at their own hearts. Take Wanda Holloway, a woman from Channelview, Texas who tried to hire a hitman to take out the mother of her daughter's cheerleading rival. And then there's today's story, which takes place just 200 miles down the road from Channelview in a town famous for being the birth place of one of America's great art forms.

Lindsey Graham (4:13): And that art form, the history and pride behind it, is an important piece of what happened there, but it's not the defining factor. Instead, at the center of this story is that powerful force, a mother's love. This is the dance mom kidnapper.

Lindsey Graham (4:33): We all know starting something new isn't just hard. It's absolutely terrifying. So much work goes into this thing that you're not entirely sure will work out, and it can be hard to make that leap of faith. Trust me. I know.

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Lindsey Graham (5:13): Shopify is packed with helpful AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines, and even enhance your product photography. So Shopify is great if you're selling something, if you're building a business, if you've got a product out there on the market. However, I take advantage of the shop pay button, that little purple button that you see on a lot of websites that you buy stuff from. Here's what I would do. Download the app, put it on your phone, and you can go shopping for anything that you want.

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Lindsey Graham (6:45): That's shopify.com/americancriminal. Okay. So I don't know about you, but I like keeping my cash where I can see it. Unfortunately, traditional big wireless carriers also seem to like keeping my money. If after years of overpaying for wireless, you finally get fed up with crazy high bills, bogus fees, and free perks that actually cost more in the long run, you should switch to Mint Mobile.

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Lindsey Graham (8:32): Our story occurs in December 2016, but the first domino fell all the way back in September 1940 when the Kilgore College Rangerettes make their debut. Founded by Gussie Nell Davis, the Rangerettes are the world's first women's precision drill team. Dressed in blue skirts, red blouses, and white cowboy hats, the Rangerettes are an instant success. On the surface, the women are athletic dancers who perform synchronized routines with military precision and wide smiles. But they're more than that.

Lindsey Graham (9:03): Gussie insists that her girls be perfect in every way, manners, discipline, endurance, appearance, and strength. And they fulfill their founding purpose to keep audiences in their seats and entertain during halftime at college football games. But they also lay down a legacy that will define generations of girls growing up in Kilgore. For the decades following their creation, the Rangerettes build their reputation performing not just at college football games, but at NFL halftimes, the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade, and at five presidential inaugurations. This image of Gussie's wholesome brand of perfection has had an enduring appeal.

Lindsey Graham (9:42): And while the Rett's, as they're affectionately known, were the first women's drill team, they didn't stay that way for long. Today, they're not even the only drill team in Kilgore. The local high school has the high steppers, and plenty of its members go on to try out for the Rett's. And that's what brings us to the mid two thousand tens. A Texas girl through and through, Kylie Moats has been a high stepper for her whole high school career until she isn't.

Lindsey Graham (10:08): The High Steppers coach Colleen Clower likes to keep things fair and has a system to ensure that there's no favoritism when it comes to choosing girls. Everyone has to try out every year even if they were previously on the team. Three independent judges oversee these tryouts, scoring each hopeful on a set of individual skills. Those scores are then given to the school principal instead of Colleen, so she has no idea who's on the team till she's handed the list of top contenders. It's a rigorous and fair minded process.

Lindsey Graham (10:38): And in the 2015, Kylie Moats auditions for the highsteppers for the final time. But despite making the cut in previous years, Kylie scores aren't as high as some of the other girls and she doesn't make it. Colleen is sad to see that her longtime member has been left out. So she sends Kylie a text message, telling her she's heartbroken, inviting her to work as a manager for the team instead. She won't be performing, but at least she can still be involved.

Lindsey Graham (11:06): Kylie doesn't respond to the text and Colleen figures that the matter is closed, but of course, it is not. Shortly after the new team roster is posted, Kylie's parents, Nancy and Kyle, submit a formal complaint to the school board. They allege that at least one of the so called impartial judges colluded with Colleen to exclude Kylie and any other taller girls to ensure height uniformity on the squad. This is a more reasonable accusation than it might sound. Precision drill teams are all about synchronized movements, uniform performance.

Lindsey Graham (11:39): So it would not be surprising to find out that they have some kind of height requirement. But they don't. At least there's not any official proof of it. Still, the Moats family insist that their daughter has been damaged by being left off the team. Her senior year is ruined.

Lindsey Graham (11:54): Every football game, every performance, every milestone will be unbearable because of what Kylie's been robbed of. But after hearing the accusation of corruption, the school principal and the district superintendent reject the claims. They allow the original judge's scores to stand, excluding Kylie from the team. But the fight is not over. That August, right as the school year is about to begin, Nancy and Kyle Motes bring their complaint to the school board, who decide that Kylie should be allowed on the team after all.

Lindsey Graham (12:25): The drama doesn't end there, though. This decision creates a lot of tension in the Kilgore drill team community. The Rangerettes are part of the town's identity. No one can understand why the school board is getting involved in this matter when they've never sought involvement with a team before, Nor can anyone work out why they are allowed to overrule qualified judges, all of whom are former Kilgore Rangeress. Colleen is put out by the whole affair, not necessarily because she doesn't want Kylie on the team, but because the board's decision makes the accusations about her seem legitimate.

Lindsey Graham (12:59): Still, she wants everything to be fair, so she invites every girl who tried out for the high steppers to join the team too. It's only Three students accept the invitation in addition to Kylie. But according to Nancy Motes, her daughter is ostracized by the other girls on the team and even gets bullied because of what's happened. So after all the effort she went to to ensure Kylie was on the drill team, Nancy pulls her daughter out of Kilgore High and sends her to Pine Tree High in the nearby town of Longview. This new school has a precision drill squad of their own, but Kylie doesn't join.

Lindsey Graham (13:33): Maybe she doesn't want to face a repeat of the last few months, or maybe she just never cared that much to begin with. Whatever her reason, she settles in for a quiet senior year. So after a lot of sound and fury, all is well in Kilgore, Texas. Kylie graduates in the 2016 and goes off to college in Arlington. And with more than 100 miles distance between them, Kylie probably figures her mom won't be meddling in her life anymore.

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Lindsey Graham (14:22): Quince has all the wardrobe staples for spring. Think a 100% European linen shorts and shirts from $34. Lightweight, breathable, and so comfortable, but it still looks put together and clean 100% Pima cotton tees with a softness that has to be felt. Their pants also hit that same balance, relaxed and comfortable, but still polished enough to wear pretty much everywhere. Everything is priced 50 to 80% less than what you would find in similar brands.

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Lindsey Graham (15:49): Do you ever meet someone and think, wow, they've really been through it, and then realize we all have? That's what We're All Insane is all about. It's a podcast where real people sit down to share their stories that have shaped them. The raw unfiltered moments that don't usually make it into everyday conversation. There are no scripts, no interruptions, and no filters.

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Lindsey Graham (17:20): It's the afternoon of 12/29/2016. Nancy Modes has been out running errands for most of the day and figures she's earned a coffee, so she pulls into a Starbucks. As she's waiting for her drink, she spots a pair of women talking quietly at a table across the store. She vaguely recognizes them as mothers of Kilgore High School students. But with the sound of frothing milk and servers chattering away behind the counter, she can't hear what they're saying.

Lindsey Graham (17:46): But from the way they both looked over at her just now, she can guess what they're talking about. Nancy knows people still gossip about what she did. So when the barista calls out her name, Nancy snatches up her drink and storms out to her car. She's sick of everyone in this damn town. Ever since Nancy waded into the politics of the highsteppers, she's been somewhat infamous in Kilgore.

Lindsey Graham (18:09): And it's not just a high school drill team affair, it seems anything involving her daughter's happiness can make Nancy act a little intense. It's important to underline that this is gossip, but rumor has it that Nancy once spread a story about her own daughter Kylie getting pregnant. Supposedly, was trying to stop Kylie's then boyfriend from breaking up with her. But when he dumped her anyway, Nancy drove to the kid's house and tried to block him in his driveway with her car. Substantiating any of this is tricky, but it's important for context because gossip is an important factor to what Nancy's about to do.

Lindsey Graham (18:46): And the story about Kylie's supposed pregnancy did get around, including to Patrick Shore, Kylie's boyfriend after the first guy. His mother heard it from a woman named Dana Blair. And as Nancy is driving out of the Starbucks parking lot that day, she happens to spot Patrick driving by. And without even thinking about it, she starts following him. She's heard that since he broke up with Kylie, he started dating a new girl, Brianna.

Lindsey Graham (19:13): And for whatever reason, Nancy has decided that she needs to tail Patrick until he meets up with Brianna, then take a photo of the young couple to send to Kylie. In Nancy's mind, seeing Patrick with a new girl will help her move on from the relationship. Somewhere along the way, Nancy realizes that Patrick might recognize her, which she doesn't want. But in an incredible stroke of luck, she just happens to have a short brown wig with her in the car. She slips that on to cover her dirty blonde hair and shoves a cap on top to keep it in place.

Lindsey Graham (19:45): But after donning her disguise, Nancy loses interest in Patrick. She decides that she wants to find Brianna by herself. The only problem is Nancy doesn't know where Brianna lives. So she pulls over on a quiet side street and opens up Facebook on her phone. A quick search shows her that Brianna is good friends with 18 year old Alexa Blair.

Lindsey Graham (20:06): Alexa is the daughter of Dana Blair, the woman who supposedly told Patrick and his mom about the invented pregnancy scare. So to Nancy, this makes Dana responsible for Patrick and Kylie breaking up in the first place. And both Brianna and Alexa had been high steppers at Kilgore High School, the teen Kylie didn't make. More importantly though, Nancy knows where the Blairs live and she figures that Alexa will have Brianna's address. So Nancy puts her phone away and drives a mile or so to the Blairs house.

Lindsey Graham (20:37): Nancy knows all about the Blairs. Plenty of people in town do. Dana Blair has been the director of the Kilgore Rangerettes since the early nineteen nineties. Before that, she was their choreographer, and before that, she was a rangerette herself. Alexa is currently a freshman at Kilgore College, and after a lifetime of training, she made the Rangerettes this year and is gearing up for their big performance at the Cotton Bowl in just a few days' time.

Lindsey Graham (21:02): It's about 6PM when Nancy parks at the nursing home just around the corner from the Blairs Place. And although she'll later claim that she was only planning to ask Alexa for Brianna's address, what she does next suggests that it's not the whole story. Nancy is already wearing a wig and baseball cap. She also grabs a gun from her glove compartment and leans into the back seat to pick up a roll of duct tape and an oversized Christmas card shaped like a snowman. Feeling prepared, she walks down the block to the Blairs' home and rings the doorbell.

Lindsey Graham (21:34): Dana answers and seems surprised to find a woman standing there in a cheap wig, holding a snowman Christmas card over the bottom half of her face like it's a mask. But when Nancy asks if Alexa is home, Dana's southern hospitality kicks in and she steps aside to invite Nancy in. Then she calls upstairs to her daughter. When the 18 year old appears a few seconds later, Nancy drops the card and holds up her gun. The first thing she does is order both women to hand over their phones.

Lindsey Graham (22:03): She then asks if either of them know who she is. When both shake their heads, she tells them, you'll know what this is about very soon. She then tosses the duct tape to Alexa and instructs her to bind her mother's hands. When that's done, Nancy herself tapes up Alexa. Then with both of the blares tied up, Nancy goes through Alexa's phone looking for Brianna's address.

Lindsey Graham (22:26): When she can't find it, she looks up and announces that she and Alexa are going to go for a drive together. Stalling for time, Alexa asks if she can go upstairs to put some shoes on, which Nancy allows. But when Alexa doesn't come back, Nancy figures she better go up and check on her. It's at this point that Dana seizes her chance. She bolts out the front door and starts screaming for help.

Lindsey Graham (22:49): Meanwhile, Nancy comes back downstairs with Alexa and both of them are surprised that Dana's gone. But Nancy decides that she doesn't have time to go chasing after her. She grabs Alexa by the arm and drags her outside, pulling her down the street toward the nursing home. By this stage, Dana has managed to flag down Lori and Travis Wilcox, a pair of neighbors who are backing out of their driveway. Travis gets out to accompany Dana back to her house while Lori drives off in the direction Dana saw Nancy taking Alexa.

Lindsey Graham (23:19): Lori catches up to Nancy just as she's pulling out of the nursing home. Then she follows her, both of them driving at top speed through rush hour traffic. Lori calls 911 while she's driving, telling the operator what's going on and reading out Nancy's license plate number. But she's forced to stop when Nancy blasts through a red light. By the time the light changes again, Nancy's car has disappeared.

Lindsey Graham (23:43): But just when Nancy is sure she's shaken off the tail, her phone rings. It's her husband, Kyle, asking when she'll be home for dinner. Acting like nothing strange is happening, Nancy tells him that she'll be home shortly and then hangs up. She hands the phone over to Alexa and then tells her to call home and find out if the police are there. And of course, Dana has called the police and a patrol car was close enough that an officer is already on the scene.

Lindsey Graham (24:08): They're getting information from Dana while a group of concerned neighbors stand around anxious to help. Suddenly, the ringing of the Blairs landline gusts through the chatter. Dana rushes forward and picks up the phone, relieved to hear it's Alexa. Her daughter is still alive. But Alexa is not calling to say she's been let go.

Lindsey Graham (24:27): Her kidnapper has ordered her to call and find out what's going on. Dana swallows hard. She tells Alexa that, yes, there's one police officer here, but she can make him go away if that's what the kidnapper wants. As Alexa is relaying this message, Dana then presses a button on the phone to put the call on speaker, but she fumbles with a handset and accidentally hangs up instead. In the car, Alexa announces that the line's gone dead, which sends Nancy into a panic.

Lindsey Graham (24:56): She quickly throws Dana's phone out the window and onto the road, then smashes Alexa's cell and tosses it too. Meanwhile, back at the Blair's house, Dana frantically dials Alexa's cell phone over and over, but she can't get through. She relives the moment when her finger slipped and disconnected the call. What a stupid mistake. And as she tries dialing again and again, she can't stop the fears from creeping in, wondering where her daughter is now, if she's scared, and if they'll ever see each other again.

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Lindsey Graham (26:38): It's 12/29/2016 in Kilgore, Texas. Right around 06:30PM, Nancy Moats is weaving through traffic as fast as she can. In the passenger seat beside her is 18 year old Alexa Blair, her wrists duct taped together. Only minutes ago, Nancy threw Alexa's phone out the window. Now she can barely keep her eyes off the rearview mirror.

Lindsey Graham (27:01): Every car she sees, she wonders if it's following her. Maybe it's an undercover cop or another nosy neighbor. Wanting to distract herself, Nancy shifts her attention back to Alexa, who seems remarkably calm given what's happening. Nancy wants to know what her deal is and starts asking questions. She knows Alexa is a Kilgore Rangerette and asks if she thinks that makes her perfect.

Lindsey Graham (27:23): Is that why she's so calm? Because of the famously brutal Rangerette training. From there, Nancy's questions become more personal. Does Alexa have a boyfriend? Who's her best friend in the world?

Lindsey Graham (27:34): What about Brianna Duffield? Does she know her? Nancy peppers Alexa with questions right up until she pulls a car into a storage facility parking lot. Then she hops out of the car and pulls Alexa out of the passenger seat. As they're walking away from the car, Alexa looks around in the dim light of the early winter evening.

Lindsey Graham (27:53): All she can see is high walls on every side of the property, lit with bright spotlights. But before she can make out anything else, Nancy prods her around to face the slim roller door of a storage unit. Nancy fiddles with the lock for a moment and Alexa wonders if she should try to run while her captor is distracted. But then the lock opens and the door glides up. Nancy shoves Alexa inside, sliding the door closed behind them.

Lindsey Graham (28:17): There's a single light bulb in the claustrophobic space. It sways back and forth slightly as Nancy crouches down and duct tapes Alexa's ankles together. The teenager feels her breathing get heavier as she feels the tape go around and around. Then Nancy orders Alexa to lie down on the cold concrete floor, which she does, closing her eyes and saying a silent prayer. Alexa feels a weight on her chest.

Lindsey Graham (28:42): Nancy is kneeling on her and she hears Nancy's voice. This is for my daughter, Kylie Moats. Alexa has just enough time to register that that name sounds familiar before she feels hands around her throat. Nancy is squeezing, choking the air out of Alexa and it doesn't take long for Alexa to lose consciousness. When she comes to, she keeps her eyes shut.

Lindsey Graham (29:06): Her throat feels tight and sore, but she's distracted by the noise of someone moving about the room. Then she hears Nancy's voice again. Oh, are you still breathing? Alexa's eyes snap open and she watches Nancy stoop down to get close to her once more. But instead of strangling her again, Nancy just rips a strip of tape from the roll and puts it over Alexa's lips.

Lindsey Graham (29:29): And without another word, she opens the storage space door, ducks into the parking lot, and rolls the door back into place, leaving Alexa alone in the dark. Alexa listens to Nancy's footsteps getting further away, then to the sound of a car starting up and driving off. When she's sure the coast is clear, she starts moving. She sits up and rips the tape from her ankles, then uses her teeth to peel it from her wrists. She throws open the unlocked door and runs into the empty parking lot.

Lindsey Graham (30:00): Once again, all she can see is fences on every side of the property, eight feet high at least, and most of them are topped by barbed wire. But there's one stretch that isn't, and Alexa has been training as a precision drill performer practically her whole life. She spent hundreds of hours doing incredibly demanding routines filled with high kicks and leaps, so an eight foot fence won't defeat her. Alexa uses her incredible strength to scale the fence and drop down on the grass on the other side. She looks around, gathering her bearings, and sees that she's in a quiet residential neighborhood.

Lindsey Graham (30:33): She runs down the sidewalk, slowing down to look in people's front windows until she spots exactly what she's looking for, a young mother feeding a baby. She's sure that if there's anyone she can trust to help her, it will be this woman. Alexa knocks on the front door, and when the woman answers it, she explains what she's been through in the last hour. And because this is Kilgore, the woman actually recognizes Alexa. She knows she's a rangerette, knows exactly who her mom is, and she knows that this girl isn't lying, not a ret.

Lindsey Graham (31:03): So she opens the door wide and waves Alexa in, showing her where the phone is. Alexa dials 911 and within minutes an ambulance has arrived. Once they've confirmed that Alexa is mostly okay, the paramedics take her straight to the police station to give a statement. By this stage, local law enforcement have already started working the case. And thanks to Lori Wilcox, the neighbor who gave chase in the car, detectives have identified Nancy Moats as the kidnapper.

Lindsey Graham (31:30): So as Alexa answers questions at the station, officers are already showing up at the Moats family home to bring Nancy in. When they confront her, Nancy gives the performance of a lifetime, telling the detectives she's got no idea who the Blairs are. Why would she kidnap someone she's never met? She also denies owning a wig. She's never worn one, she says.

Lindsey Graham (31:51): Still, the cops take Nancy in on suspicion of kidnapping, and they let Alexa go home with her parents to try to get some sleep. The day after her kidnapping, Alexa packs her bag and travels with her mom and the rest of the Kilgore Rangerettes to Arlington, where the team is scheduled to perform at their signature event, the New Year's Day Cotton Bowl Classic. The Rangerettes have been performing pre and halftime shows at this game since the nineteen fifties. And despite what she's been through, Alexa refuses to give up her chance to take part. She's been training for this moment for years, and she won't let it be taken away from her.

Lindsey Graham (32:26): So on 01/01/2017, Alexa Blair takes to the field at AT And T Stadium soaking in the roar of the crown. And the whole time, there is one person watching her more closely than anyone else, her mother. Back in Kilgore, Nancy Moats is granted bail and spends the next two years denying she had any involvement in what happened to Dana and Alexa. Then in April 2019, her trial rolls around. Charged with two counts of aggravated kidnapping, Nancy's staring down sentences ranging from probation all the way up to life in prison.

Lindsey Graham (33:00): So she changes her tune and pleads guilty. In exchange, she's given just five years behind bars. But her legal troubles aren't over. The Blairs bring a civil suit against Nancy, seeking between $200,000 and $1,000,000 in damages. Nancy isn't required to appear in court for the civil trial, but tells her story through a taped deposition.

Lindsey Graham (33:22): She's never really been able to articulate what it was that made her target the Blairs that December day. And looking back, she admits that her behavior was crazy. After all, she didn't know the family, but they were prominent faces of the Kilgore Rangerettes, which represents the best of precision drill teams, a dream Nancy felt had been stolen from her daughter, Kylie. In Nancy's mind, she was just a mother looking out for the well-being of her daughter. But by the time Nancy kidnapped Alexa, Kylie Moats was over a 100 miles away, living her best life at college.

Lindsey Graham (33:54): She'd move on from whatever pain she might have felt being cut from the highsteppers, but her mother still carried the wounds and made the misguided criminal decision to take violent revenge on avatars of the people who hurt her. In the end, the judge finds Nancy guilty and awards the Blairs $575,000 in damages. It's a bill Nancy finds waiting for her when she's paroled in November 2021, having served half of her five year sentence. In the years following her release, Nancy Motes maintains a low profile. Her flirtation with kidnapping and maybe even murder seems to have been a one off, a lapse in judgment caused by, to hear her tell it, motherhood.

Lindsey Graham (34:39): If you enjoyed this episode, check out our American criminal series called To Kill a Cheerleader. And before you go, don't forget to rate American Criminal on your favorite podcast app. Leave us a review while you're there. Both of those things help other people find the show, which in turn helps us a lot. We use many different sources while preparing this episode.

Lindsey Graham (35:05): One we can especially recommend is the 2022 Texas monthly article, The Positively True Adventures of the Kilgore Rangerette Kidnapping Mom by Katie Vine. This episode may contain reenactments or dramatized details. And while in some cases we can't know exactly what happened, all our dramatizations are based on historical research. American Criminal is a co production of Airship and Evergreen podcasts. This time around, it's hosted, edited, and produced by me, Lindsey Graham.

Lindsey Graham (35:33): Audio editing and sound design by Sean Rule Hoffman. Music by Throne. This episode is written and researched by Joel Callan. Managing producer, Emily Burke. Executive producers are Joel Callan and Lindsey Graham.